Archive for May, 2012

Decided that tonight was the night i would play my first NL50 hands in what is probably close to a year now. Have to say i was pretty excited as i opened my first few tables, this has been a while coming now.

Managed to play about 500 hands before TiltBreaker kicked in, again i have this set pretty low at $70 from peak due to my tilt problems, ended the session down $5 which i guess im pleased with but i probably ran looser than i should have shot taking and as a result got my self in some tricky spots that i wasnt quite sure of. I was quite worried that the money might scare me as thats what originally stopped me moving up 2 years ago and its a while now since ive played near this level but it really didnt phase me, its still poker right and i just tried to keep to my normal game.

Anyway heres a couple of the biggest hands i played where i got a little concerned about my play:-

Villain is 20/15 after 20 hands. Is his range just flushes?

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold’em – 9 players – View hand 1779522
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BB: $51.33
UTG: $76.02
UTG+1: $81.72
UTG+2: $123.75
Hero (MP1): $50.00
MP2: $13.44
CO: $47.96
BTN: $19.25
SB: $59.93

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP1 with K of clubs K of spades
3 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, MP2 calls $1.50, 3 folds, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.75) 2 of clubs 3 of clubs 9 of hearts (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.75, MP2 folds, BB calls $3.75

Turn: ($12.25) K of diamonds (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB calls $10

River: ($32.25) 7 of clubs (2 players)
BB bets $17.24, Hero ???????

2nd hand and the villain is 44/33 after 9 hands.

I have to bet the turn here dont i? Seems a clear value bet to me. River sucks folding right?

Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold’em – 8 players – View hand 1779525
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BB: $20.00
UTG: $25.50
UTG+1: $38.20
MP1: $50.00
Hero (MP2): $50.25
CO: $24.63
BTN: $54.20
SB: $84.58

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP2 with T of spades T of diamonds
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BTN calls $2, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $1.50

Flop: ($6.75) 3 of diamonds 4 of clubs 5 of spades (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $6, BTN folds, UTG+1 calls $6

Turn: ($18.75) K of clubs (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $12.43, UTG+1 calls $12.43

River: ($43.61) 6 of spades (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $17.77 all in, Hero folds


Poker wise theres not too much to report really as i had a pretty busy weekend and managed to play the grand total of 280 hands. Im planning to try and take some NL50 shots this week if all goes to plan as its going pretty well at NL25 at the moment even though my volume sucks having only played about 23K hands this month.

The sun has been out this week in the UK and when the sun comes out it usually means the BBQ`s come out as well so it was BBQ and beer time on Saturday night after work. Oh we had the joy of the Eurovision song contest as well which is always quite funny to watch. You would think that this would be voted on who has the best song when in fact its basically voted on by who provides the most funding or favours to other countries hence the UK never do that well in this. 😀

Sunday was off to another BBQ and kids fun day with my girlfriend and her Daughter and we managed to take in plenty of sun as it was a lovely day once again. You just cant beat the sun beaming down on you, although work wise it does mean a shortage of people in the shop as people often have better things to do on sunny days than buy carpets.

Got a few ideas for articles for the blog that are half wrote and also want to try and get the final part on the Ipoker bots done for the end of the week but im looking quite busy again so no promises.

All the best.

So we have had a bit of background about how the bots work and why the designers dont think botting is cheating. Now its time to get in to the juicy bit which were the emails that i sent to William Hill outlining my concerns along with providing them with evidence that i had put together.

Below is the second email that i sent to WH (1st didnt get a reply) along with a file listing names and stats including loses and number of hands and hours per day(edited to tidy up this post):-

Hi there,

I wonder if t is possible to find out both William Hills and Ipoker`s stance
or rules on people using bots to play at the tables. I have been playing
mainly NL20 6max for the past month and have i have compiled a list of players
whom i believe not to be playing within the true spirit of the game. First i
noticed quite a few players that according to my HUD are playing almost
identical stats, on further investigation on the site Poker Table Ratings when
i wasnt playing i find that all these players are playing hundreds of thousands
of hands, all losing players but obviously making money through rakeback. These
players sem to be able to play for a number of hours playing the same robotic
style but strangely enough even though they all play so many hands, none of
them ever play on the same tables as another player on the list.

If you could please inform me of the rules on this and also what actions i
should take from here that would be great. I have heard rumours that things
like this are not taken very seriously by Ipoker which i hope isnt true as
these players appear to be blatently breaking the T&C of the site.

Thanks for your help.


Since then i have searched on the forums of 2+2 and it appears that im not the only one who is complaining about the use of bots at this site.
I now have a list of about 30 players who all play in an identical pattern and have the same bot tendancies.
Again i would like to know the Ipoker policy on this. If they say they are aware of it then i guess its ok and we can just publish the names on 2+2 and go from there.

Thanks for your help in this matter.


Here is the first reply that i recieved:-

Hi Martin,

This is Amy, VIP Manager here at William Hill Poker.

I would like to thank you for bringing these group of players to our

We have completed thorough checks on each of the accounts and are satisfied
that none of the accounts at present show any signs of using prohibited
software to aid their poker activities.

Although all of the accounts appear to have similar stats, this could be due
to the players each sharing tutors from the same respectable Poker School.
The players never sit on the same table as each other because of an agreement
between the card room of the players and the poker school. This was a
preventive measure to protect the other players on the tables from possible
collusion and the list of players themselves from being suspected of being
possible colluders. I can also confirm that the players are each owned by
different individuals.

We have also come across many instances where the players have timed out
during hands due to having to make important decisions on other tables at the
same time. This does not appear to be normal bot activity as bots are
programmed to play and not time out. None of the accounts also appear to have
excessive hours. They all have breaks during the days activities as well as
long breaks at the end of each days play which again goes against normal bot

We conduct a number of tests to determine if a player suspected of being a bot
is using prohibited software, our tests have shown that none of the listed
players show any signs of using prohibited software to aid their poker
activities. We will however continue to monitor the accounts and will update
you should we deem any player on this list has been frozen for the use of
prohibited software.

We take all bot complaints extremely seriously and do not permit the use of
bot software on our network. Any account found to be using prohibited software
will have their accounts permanently closed and balances suspended.

Kind regards,Amy – VIP Manager

Obviously a few questions need to be asked about this reply. If its a poker school then what sort of school teaches players to play a losing type of poker and lets them do it for hours on end?  What type of school makes players play the same robotic style and make the same mistakes over and over without deviating from their style and seemingly without tilting? So the good things about this school is that they teach players a zen like state to play poker yet cant teach them a style to beat the games yet they teach numerous players what looks like the exact same style.

I decided i would follow up my initial email with another asking some more questions:-

Hey thank you for response regarding the list of players that i sent you.

I have a few further questions about this if thats ok.

What is the name of this Poker School that you mention?  I just wonder because it seems that they can teach people to play in a very tilt free robotic style and i wonder what their secret is. I also wonder why all the players on the list are significant losers in the games they play yet still continue to play. So we are saying that these guys are probably all sat together in a room playing, is that right? Otherwise there wouldnt be a problem with them playing against each other. I mean i have had many hours of coaching and have played against my coaches students on numerous occasions and never felt the need for preventitive measures like this. If this is the case then what is to stop them colluding against myself and other players anyway? Also by now these guys must have noticed that they are been exploited in certain ways and would adapt to counter that but as yet that hasnt happened and it makes me curious as to why.

The questions above have me really curious and i am looking forward to some answers. I feel if there is nothing to stop them discussing how i am playing against them then i may as well post on the web the list of strategies to exploit these players that i use that works against every single one of the players i have on the list.

I know the session time was mentioned but do you think it is normal for people to play for 12 hours at a time at NL20? All these session times for each of these players is publicly available on Poker Table Ratings and all of them can be seen doing stints like this on a regular basis. Now if someone is playing all that time there is no way they couldnt improve their game to be a winning player at that level yet they never change their style which again points back to the first set of questions about them all sat in a room together and actually `working` for someone and having to play a specific way without any deviation.

Now on to the actual bot in question. Is it not strange that none of these players play more than 4 tables at a time which strangely enough is the maximum number of tables the bot can play. I think we all know the bot is the Shanky bot which can be found pretty easily on the web.

Now i presume that this website will be monitored by Ipoker for preventative measures so they will already know quite a lot about this bot and the way it functions. So they will already know that it is fully programmable and can be programmed to change styles of play and programmed for how long it plays a session and also to be made to take a break every x amount of minutes. They will already know that this was the bot that was cracked down on by Full Tilt which resulted in a lot of accounts been frozen and money returned to players that had played against them.

(I go on to mention here about the bot site offering a 55% rake back deal at WH and have edited it out to save space)

This is a site selling a bot that breaks the terms and conditions of most poker sites and also advertising generous RB offers as well as openly advertising that the bot works on Ipoker and that the company turns a blind eye to people using the bot there.

I guess you can see where peoples suspicions are coming from and why numerous threads pop up on 2+2 discussing Ipoker and this apparent turning a blind eye. I still have no doubt that i am playing against players that are using this bot. I have played poker for enough years online to spot peoples tendencies and weaknesses and when i come across multiple players playing exactly the same then i am going to notice this quite quickly.

Again thank you for taking the time to respond and hopefully you would be able to help me out in the matters above.



So i waited and waited for a response and eventually i received the following email:-

Hi Martin,

Thank you for your patience while the points you have raised have been further

We are able to confirm that the poker school in question is an internet
related tutoring site rather than a location where members can attend. The
site to which the players listed in the original thread are linked to is

The measure put in place between the card room and the poker affiliate
preventing the players from playing together was put in place to protect other
players on the tables. The affiliate and card room are well aware that as
members of the same poker school, the players could be in possible contact
with each other and restricting them from playing on the same table prevents
them from possibly sharing hole card information. There is no reason to
believe that any of the players are playing in the same room.

Many grinders at every stake level regularly play sessions that exceed more
than 12 hours. We do not view this number in particular to be an excessive
amount. The players you have listed average between 7-10 hour session times
with long breaks in between.
In regards to the statement that the players play 4 tables at any one time
which is the maximum to what the Shanky bot can play, the players on the list
regularly play more than 4 tables at any one time.

We can assure you that any player or account found to be using prohibited
software will have their account closed and funds confiscated. As stated in
our previous email, all of the accounts listed by the player will be continued
to be monitored.

Kind Regards,

Amy – VIP Manager

With Best Regards,

William Hill Poker Customer Services

Once again their reply left more questions than it did answers. I mean why would they put a restriction in place stopping players from this `Poker School` from sitting on the same tables? Do they do the same for members of Deuces Cracked or Cardrunners which is essentially the same thing as they have described? More importantly how do they enforce such restrictions? How are the people who are part of this school going to know which tables they can or cant play?

Looking further in to this email it also brings in to question how this `poker school` has managed to get each and everyone of its students playing the same style of losing poker with seemingly no deviation at all.

They do make an error in the email saying the bot can only play 4 tables when it can in fact play 6 at the same time. Strange as well that they go in to the amount of time they play and inform us that the players on the list average 7-10 sessions at a time. Now just to get this straight in my head we have about 50 players all averaging long sessions playing the same style of poker and consistently losing money yet probably should be showing signs of improvement for the amount of time that they are playing.

So that was that and i decided since IPoker were loathe to admit that these players were bots i would come up with ways to exploit them which i did for the rest of my time playing on IPoker.

In the 4th part i will get in to the things i used to do to exploit them, i will also do some basic rake calculations that show why IPoker are so reluctant to rid their site of the bots and also why William Hill shouldnt have really given me the website address of that `poker school`.

Anyone who knows me will know that my sport of choice is Rugby League and i follow my local team Halifax home and away as much as i possibly can.

For anyone who dosnt know its a pretty tough sport and for all the flair that is on show theres sometimes a bit of biff that goes with it as well. None more so in the Australian State Of Origin Series which is ongoing at the moment. The best players are picked to represent the state in which they played their first senior Rugby League in, either New South Wales (The Blues) or Queensland (The Maroons) and by many its regarded as the highest level of rugby League played anywhere in the world.

The rivalry is fierce and it also brings up the interesting factor of team mates playing against each other and tempers have been known to boil over like in the two videos below, one from 2010 and one from yesterdays game in which Queensland came away winners. Enjoy.

Just a quick update on how things have been going in general. First off since i posted the video of me playing on here i hadnt had a winning session in about 5 and ended up dropping about 4 1/2 buyins which has hampered my attempts to shot take NL50 as i want to try and do it when i feel im playing and running well. Most of the losses came from been a tad unlucky but a couple of them came out of frustration at feeling that i was running bad. I managed to post a winning session yesterday and hopefully ive turned the corner now but you never know in Poker. All i can say as well is that any one with tilt issues who is not running Tilt Breaker is missing a trick. This neat bit of software is a god send to me when ive been playing like this. Ive got mine set pretty low and its set at just over a buy in which dosnt seem much but after analyzing my DB thats the point where my play deteriorates.

It was also the second game of our pool season yesterday and we managed a 7-5 win away from home against a decent team who fancy their chances of winning the league. Now if im honest and without trying to sound big headed if we were playing without the restrictions of time limits and fines that we place on ourselves ive no doubt that we would win the league pretty comfortably. Last night we didnt play well a all and still managed to claw the win. On a personal note i kept up my good form winning both my games. After you play your game you always shake your opponents hand who normally congratulates you, well i got down for the Black ball and fired it straight in the pocket, i turn around to shake my opponents hand and i cant believe my eyes as John Terry is stood there with a pool cue shaking my opponents hand. 🙂  (Sorry if you dont get that) To cap it all off Geoff Shreeves then interviews my opponent and asks him “You do know you would have won the game if you had potted the black?”  (and again)

On a personal note i went to the Doctors with my throat, and they are always shocked to see me as its very rare im that ill, but anyway it turns out i have severe tonsillitis which would explain the pain that im in and makes my attempt at downing a pint in one even more impressive. So it looks like i need plenty of TLC over the next few days, so Cara if you are reading this thats the doctors orders. 😉

Now obviously ive got a ton of stuff that i still want to get in to on this topic, the emails i sent back and forth to William Hill, the players themselves and the ways to exploit them, the dodgy `Poker school` that William Hill support said these players belong to, and some of the math behind why these guys are so profitable to the network and why they could never afford to get rid of them. First of all though we are going to go off a bit at a tangent and pull some stuff off the bot forum which shows some of the reasons why these bots are getting harder to play, how easy it is for them to get caught if Ipoker wanted to catch them and last but not least the funny post made by the bot owner explaining why they dont see using the bot as cheating.

I get regular email updates from the bot site explaining new sites that bot can play on and new snippets of code which can be used to help people design better profiles for their bots.

The default profile which comes in our Holdem Bot is a solid TAG-style No Limit player, with near-perfect stats, and is classified as a shark by Poker Edge. However, today’s games are always changing – so being able to design new profiles is an important feature in our software. This is why we have supplied an easy-to-learn method for customizing your own actions in the bot, known as PPL.

Many of our members have created their own profiles and do very well with them. It comes down to how good of a poker strategist you are. Some of these profiles have graphs with impressive stats, and are sold inside the marketplace section of our support forum. You could be the next player to create a great new profile, and choose to either keep it to yourself or sell it.

For example, suppose you want to design a very aggressive 6-max cash game profile. Let’s say you are tired of getting re-raised pre-flop from the button or the blinds after you open-raise, and want to 3-bet them a certain percentage of the time regardless of your hand holding (as long as their bet size is not too big). A simple line like this will do the trick:

when botslastaction = raise and raises = 1 and amounttocall < 6 and random <= 50 raise 85% force

That code-line will make the 3-bet after your open-raise is re-raised, and do it randomly 50% of the time, as long as the amount to call is below 6 big blinds. So if your open raise is typically to 3 big blinds, and these knuckleheads are re-raising you making it 5 more to call (or less), your profile will hit them back for about 85% of the pot more, half the time, randomly. See how intuitive that is? (The raise count will only be 1 because the bots own actions are not included in the bet/raise count in PPL.)

Obviously now, you want to make a flop continuation bet when only against one opponent. That code-line would look like this:

when botslastaction = raise and raisesbeforeflop = 1 and botsactionsonthisround = 0 and opponents = 1 and bets = 0 and raises = 0 bet 75% force

With that code-line you will always follow your pre-flop 3-bet with a bet of 75% of the pot on the flop if only against one opponent, regardless of what you hold or what flops. Most of the time, that move will take the pot down right there. But, some 6-max opponents are tricky. So you may want to program a re-raise when you get raised about 1/3 of the time, just to keep them on their toes. That code-line would go right underneath the above one, and might look like this:

when botslastaction = bet and botslastpreflop action = raise and raisesbeforeflop = 1 and botsactionsonthisround = 1 and opponents = 1 and bets = 0 and raises = 1 and amounttocall < 40% potsize and random <= 33 raise 85% force

Remember, this is all without specifying what flopped or what hand you hold, which of course can also be added if you like. You might also decide to check-raise from first position 33% of the time randomly, which can be added with another code-line. But with these three code-lines above you will have a very aggressive 6-max cash game player. In fact, you can take these right out if this email and add them to any decent cash game profile (such as the one that comes in the bot), and start giving your 6-max opponents fits. When they see that you are prone to play back at them, they will think twice before trying to run over you.

As i have mentioned before its easy to see that the program language that is used is simple and easy to pick up once you have the hang of it. If you have a decent knowledge of the game then it would be pretty easy to make a bot that can grind out a decent profit at the lower level micros, luckily the guy running the site has shown time and time again that he is sadly lacking in that department but his way to get round this is to get others who are pretty good to come up with code and then include it in his profiles, so although not a good poker player hes obviously a smart guy when it comes to business.

There has been a few rumours on the site of Ipoker banning accounts but they get taken down pretty quickly as Ipoker is the best place to play with the bot its obviously bad for business if it looks like theres a possibility of been bannd from the network. Below are some of the comments in regards to people complaining about this and its basically brushed under the table although the bolded part at the bottom basically shows how easy it would be to catch them if Ipoker really wanted to something about them. Clearly though its obviously not a worry otherwise you wouldnt really tell the sites how to catch your own product would you?

our iPoker rooms are not banning our accounts – if that were happening, this forum would be blown up with dozens of posts – we have supported iPoker for years with no issues

therefore I deleted the thread because the source was questionable – if somebody did get banned at Titan it was probably for something else such as multi-accounting and/or identity fraud, which has always been something poker rooms crack down on much more than using a bot

sometimes the poker rooms crack down on the more serious abusers and this is usually because multiple other players turn them in, the people who go 24/7 for 8 days straight on 4-6 tables, and that sort of thing

if a poker room/network decides to come after us, there is nothing we can do to stop them, no amount of stealth will work, we have been all through that with the Merge network – they can simply program in their software a way to detect our .dll file being injected in their process, or scan your hard drive for the bot license

Following on from that the quote below appeared on the website from a customer giving away just another way for the networks to detect the bots and as yet it hasnt recieved a reply from the bots creators.

Would be a good idea if the programmer will hide bot exe via hook method with protection from anti-debug, windows hooks and parent process emulation. The bot executable file associated registry entries and dll(msiltcf.dll) can be easily discovered by the pokerroom and detect that the executable belongs to the bot.  thumbsup

Now for the really funny bit, for anyone who thinks that botting is cheating(I mean who in their right mind would think that?????) the bots creators explain why botting isnt really cheating and it shouldnt really be frowned on. Ive edited out the compant names for various reasons but by now most people will know which company im talking about.

Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxxx  is an honest business run by honest people. We sell poker bots. Poker bots are specifically mentioned as not allowed at the online poker rooms where we program them to work at. So we make a living selling a product whose intended use violates the rules for the place it is intended to be used at.  There is no denying this. It is flat-out a violation of the rules you agree to play by (when you sign up for a poker room account) to use our software there.

However there is a big difference between cheating and using automation tools on your computer, the way we see it. There is a big difference between cheating and violating (what we see as) a minor point buried in the fine print of the terms of service form. Our products cannot collude. They cannot gain any information that is not available to everybody else who is playing. They are not created in a spirit of cheating, nor are they promoted as cheating tools. Cheating discussions, and discussions about committing fraud in any way, shape, or form, are not allowed in our support forum. They don’t belong there.

We see successfully using a bot as the ultimate achievement in the natural progression for a passionate student of the game. It is like doing your graduate work in the field of online poker. It is very much within the spirit of this unique game environment; in fact it nurtures and inspires that spirit. If you haven’t fooled around with a poker bot, tweaking it to play how you want for a specific game type that you have identified, you have not yet experienced all the satisfaction that mastering the incredibly fulfilling challenge of online poker offers.

We are obviously not the only people that think this. We have sold thousands Holdem Bots over the last few years, and one thing we can conclude is that people who truly love poker also love playing with this toy. Our typical customer is an honest player. They are mostly people that just love the game, people who would shudder at the idea of cheating. In fact I would describe most of our members as poker purists, intelligent players who like to solve puzzles and tinker with gadgets.

Even some poker rooms have seen it from our point of view as well. I have actual letters from Bodog on file, from their customer service department, answering emails where somebody reported a suspected bot user. They basically say, “Well so what? Using a bot isn’t cheating. If you have any evidence of collusion let us know.” This was their natural reaction to the issue, arrived at from thinking logically. (Unfortunately they have since been blackmailed by the jerks at 2+2 into changing their official policy on this, and nowadays say bots are not allowed. So now they just turn a blind eye like our other supported poker rooms do).

It is worthwhile to consider that the people who are waging the anti-bot campaign are actually just good players who don’t want a bunch of other good players saturating the games and fileting their fish before they can get to them. They are motivated by simple greed, a “more fish for me” attitude. So what is really better for the game of poker? Catering to greedy semi-pros who are only concerned about their bottom line? Or introducing a natural new element which helps further a dedicated player’s thinking and strategy development?

Any popular computer activity has always had aiding aftermarket software developed for it, since the dawn of the personal computer. It is only reasonable to expect that every possible kind of software to aide in online poker play will be developed as well, of which the poker bot is the pinnacle achievement (in our opinion). To stifle that development is not only oppressive, it goes against the very spirit of the game. Mike Caro made a poker robot twenty years ago. There have been official poker bot vs. human competitions sponsored by major gaming corporations. Major universities have engaged in poker bot projects.

Operators, please don’t let the greedy semi-pros poison your mind with their anti-bot propaganda. Poker bots are really, really cool. Real players love them, they are a natural development of the game, and they should not only be officially allowed, but openly welcomed. They are as natural part of online poker as playing in your pajamas. Soon there will probably be a major online poker room that officially welcomes poker bots, and our prediction is that when the world sees how popular they really are, others will get in line as well. But whoever makes that first bold move will no doubt reap huge rewards for it.

If you were attracted to our website because you thought we were offering a cool way to cheat, and you are a person who is not repulsed by the concept of cheating, please go away. You are not welcome in our community any more than you are in the poker games.

Now its fair to say after reading that your probably going to need this:-

So there we have everyone is now clear that botting is not cheating. What? You mean its not clear?

So that just gives a bit more information on that company and how it looks like they think they are invincible when it comes to been detected on IPoker. Part 3 is going to include a lot of the stuff i mention in the opening paragraph.

So the last few days have been crazy. I havnt really said much about work, but in November last year my brother and I opened our own carpet shop after carpet fitting for many years between us. Well the last couple of months have been pretty steady but this last month just seems to have gone mad and we have had a really busy month and are looking pretty busy for the beginning of June as well. Obviously the building the business up is the main thing but the downside of it is that its dosnt give me much time to play or chat about Poker.

On top of that we went on my mates stag do to Doncaster Races yesterday and had a pretty awesome day out, saying that it could have been better for myself as ive been struggling with a pretty bad throat for the past week or so and its a struggle to talk so that wasnt much fun. We all had a list of tasks that we all had to try and do and i think i managed 5 out of 8 which i didnt think was bad especially seen as though one of them was down  a pint in one which i just cant do, that coupled with the saw throat was pretty difficult and although i probably set a new record for length of time to do it, i still did it.

Obviously all this has meant no blog updates for a couple of days but hopefully in the next few days i will get round to adding the second part of the Bot Problem topic and also will try and get the NL10 or another Nl25 video up as they seemed to go down pretty well. As for the rest of the day its going to be recovering from yesterday and then over to Batley to watch my team Halifax play Rugby League. We are sitting pretty at the top of the leaague but we are only a few games in to the season and Batley is always a tough place to go but come on you Fax.

All the best.